106. Backyard Chickens, Canine Science & Rethinking How Dogs Love Us

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Pets, add Life, your guide to the latest in Pet Trends products and the joy of the human animal Bond with Kristen Levine and Chris Bonafide, powered by the American Pet Products Association and Dog tv.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Pets at Life. I am Chris Bonti, and joining me as always is the arm wrestling champion of Knoxville, Tennessee Krista Vene. Woo. Go. An original strong woman. Kristen, how are we doing today?

Speaker 3 (00:34):
We're doing great. My biceps are little sore.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big tournament this past weekend I heard. Yeah, but taking home the gold, that's all that matters. Got to keep Brad on the table for Paul and Tula.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So we're in March, believe it or not, big month. Oh, actually today starts a week-long celebration, pet sitter, professional pet sitters week. So if you are looking for a professional pet sitter, you can go to pet sit.com and find one. And if you are thinking about becoming one, you can also go to that same website and learn how to become a certified pet sitter and tons of resources and stuff like that. It's also St. Patrick's Days coming up we have March Madness. And Chris, this is why you should do research because while I was looking up what happens in March, I also learned that is the most popular month for vasectomies.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
Oh, okay. This is good news people. This is good news. Are your kids way too loud? Are their grubby paws getting on everything? Fix it for the future.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
I'll tell you more. If you stick around to the end of the show, I'll tell you more in the tail end.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh goodness. Well, you are lighting yourself up for some interesting introductions in the month of March. Kristen. Hey, let's walk ourselves away from the neutering practices of humans and lead us into our show where we are going to have two stories, two great guests, two amazing products, and at the very end we'll be answering two questions from you all. So hold on to your vasectomies. We're going in it's

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Time for story time. Kristen and Chris, present story time.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
Well, let's get back on track. Why don't you share your story of the week?

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, I've got a little article here I found, and it'll be in your show notes on how to move to another country and bring your pet. And I'm presenting this story for no particular reason. And the first tip that this article gives is choosing a crate. And we've talked a lot about this before, but what this article focuses on is making sure you're not just buying the crate, but making sure your animals crate trained. And this is often skipped on cats. Now, how many cat owners here never crate chained their cat? And then when it's time to take 'em to the vet, you have to put on scratch resistant gloves and you have to fight a battle. I'm one of them right here. I'm one of them right here. And it never dawned on me that if you do like an hour of crate time, a week leading up to a vet appointment or just as a routine that your cat isn't going to attack you when they go in the crate.

(03:25):
What a thunk. So thanks for that obvious one. And here's why I really want to talk about this. The documents. Pretty much every country is going to require a rabies vaccine on your pet, so be sure to check that out. If you're thinking of moving to any particular country, they will almost always have resources. So you could see what vaccinations are required, what animals are allowed, and what tests need to be done. So for example, if you're moving into the us, your dog needs to be tested for heartworm and you need the all clear that your dog does not have heartworm. There is also something known as the international health certificate. So if you're moving out from the USA or into the USA, this is a health certificate offered by the US Department of Agriculture, which is something that can be looked at. And then not all countries require micro shipping, but some places like Canada and the United Kingdom do require it.

(04:17):
So you want to check on those rules as well. So finally, the article goes over some breed bands, but we're not going to get into that. And then finally, flying with your pet, we've talked a lot about this on the show, you want to make sure you're choosing the right carrier that fits under the seat. You want to make sure that your animal is the appropriate size for riding with you in the cabin. And if you have a larger dog, I would highly recommend looking for a specialty carrier to shuttle your animal over that specializes in animal transportation. I personally, there is not a single airline on the face of this planet, and you could not convince me otherwise. There is not a single just regular human airline that I would put my animal into the luggage area like in a crate. It just simply would not happen for me. So yeah, that is what I will say on that. The article's going to be available in the show notes. It's lots of really great tips. And the thing is, it's just not about moving. If you're planning any international travel coming up in the summer, a lot of this information will be relevant to you as well.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Good story. And we are on the same page here, Chris, because I also have a story about a foreign country. So I came across this interesting tidbit about how the French name their dogs. This is a longstanding tradition. It's a tradition tied to the year of birth of the dog. And this practice originally came from the French Canine registry system. So especially, I can't even pronounce the name of this registry system, but it's used for registered litters like purebreds that are official clubs, but it's also spread into popular culture. So a lot of French pet owners, dog owners, even those with mixed breeds and mutts, they're playing along with this cultural cork. So the way it works is each year is assigned a letter of the alphabet. The dogs that are born that year have names that start with that letter. This is required for registered purebreds. Here's an example. In 2023, if your dog was born in 2023, its name had to start with an R. In 24, it had to start with an S in 25 a T. And this year, if your dog was unlucky enough to be born in France in 2026, the name has to begin with a U. So that's going to be challenging. Yikes. Right? They

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Would skip over the difficult letters. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (06:57):
F ones. You know what, when I was reading, they did say they skip over Z, but I don't know why they wouldn't skip over U as well.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
What about Q? Are there a lot of Frank

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Q words? Oh my gosh. I guess a lot of, if you're in

Speaker 2 (07:09):
France QQ, we don't use it a lot. I'm pretty sure it's a 10 point Scrabble tile here in the United States,

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Right? Yeah, that's true. That's true. So just think of how lucky we are here in the US that we don't have that kind of naming parameters to deal with.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
No, I'm enact. I'm running for Congress and I'm enacting this law.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
What if they enacted it for children?

Speaker 2 (07:34):
That'd be

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Grayson's name would've had to start with a, what was that? What did I say? A T. A

Speaker 2 (07:38):
TAT tracing.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well, the article did say that sometimes the French will just stick the required letter at the front of the name and make it silent.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Oh yeah. See, that is a very, very French way to do things. Yeah, French compliance. I love that.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Beyond the leash, exploring the untold stories of pet passion and professionalism,

Speaker 3 (08:02):
It's my pleasure to introduce our guest today, Dr. Clive DL Wynn. He's a professor in the department of Psychology at Arizona State University and the founding director of ASU Canine Science Collaboratory, where his research focuses on dog behavior, cognition and the dog human bond. He's also the director of research at Wolf Park in Indiana. And the author of the book Dog is Love. Why and How Your Dog Loves You, which explores the science of why dogs connect with us so deeply. And by the way, Dr. Wynn, this book is now in my Amazon cart, so I'm excited to read it. Welcome to the show. Awesome.

Speaker 5 (08:43):
Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, it's great to be with you.

Speaker 3 (08:46):
Of course. So your core premise in Dog is love, is that love, not food or dominance is the key to understanding dogs bond with people. Tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 5 (08:59):
Absolutely. So there are people out there who think that dogs are smart and that's why they get along with people so well. And although I've met some smart dogs, I don't actually think that overall that's what makes dogs so successful in human homes. I think the reason that we love having dogs in our homes is because it's so obvious that they love us and that emotional bond, not an intelligence connection, but an emotional bond is what underscores the fantastic lives that we live with them.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, absolutely. And talking a little bit about that emotional bond on the human side of things, you hear people say, my dog knows when I'm upset, which is definitely something I've experienced before, but what can dogs truly read in us? Are they able to read our facial features or is it just the mood change? Do we give off a different scent when our emotions change? And are we ever overinterpreting how our dogs feel about us?

Speaker 5 (09:58):
Well, Chris, it is abundantly clear to everybody who lives with a dog and scientific experiments have shown time and time again that our dogs are very finely attuned to our emotional states. You don't even have to be that upset. You're just sitting in that sort of crouched kind of way that you do when you're not feeling so great and your dog will come over and nuzzle you and try and cheer you up. Now you ask a terrific question, how do they know Chris? That's a fantastic question. And the truth is that, I mean, there aren't that many scientists interested in this question, and we honestly don't know how dogs know. If you are asking me for my best guess, my best guess would be that we give off different emotions at different times. We human beings have these puny little noses that are not much good for anything.

(10:47):
And so we don't really notice all the smells that our bodies give off all the time, except in exceptional circumstances which, but by and large, we can't tell by sniffing whether our spouse or whatever is happy or sad, but probably our dogs do. That would be my guess. And my goodness, wouldn't it be fantastic to actually do some experiments and try and figure that out? Dogs have these 1,000 thousand times more sensitive noses and they use their noses for that, right? We know if we are only meeting on the wonderful worldwide wear at the moment, but if we were meeting in real life, we would shake hands and we might hug, we would have a little bit of physical contact, but we wouldn't stick our noses into each other's armpits. Whereas we know when our dogs meet another dog, they don't hug. They might kiss, they might probably not though, but they definitely, absolutely, definitely would want to sniff each other's intimate portions to see what's going on there. How are you feeling? I'm going to have a good sniff and find out. So that's the most likely way that our dogs figure out our emotional states, I think.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, that makes sense. Back to when you were saying how we as dog owners, dog parents and dog lovers, we know that dogs love us and we know that they know when we're not feeling well, but what is the most common misconception that we have about our dogs?

Speaker 5 (12:13):
So a student of mine, Holly Molinaro and I have been doing some research recently showing people videos of dogs. And what we find is that at least with unfamiliar dogs now for various technical reasons, we haven't been able to figure out a way of doing this with people's own dogs. And it might be different with their own dogs, but when you show people videos of unfamiliar dogs and you ask them, how is this dog feeling basically happy or sad? They are remarkably bad at it. Remarkably bad at it. And they tend to we human beings. If you ask me, how's that dog feeling, then what I will do is I will look all around the dog at everything that's going on around the dog and try and guess how the dog ought to be feeling on the basis of what's going on. And we know that because Holly edited videos so that she switched them around so that people would see a video that seemed to be a video of a dog being offered a treat, but actually that dog was reacting to being shown the family cat who the dog hated.

(13:13):
And yet when you ask people, how's that dog feeling? They'd say the dog is happy. They see the treat, so they're not really looking at the dog at all. We also know that when people look at other people and are looking to find their emotional expression, we focus in on the eyes and the mouth, and we know the dogs are expressing very little emotion with their eyes. The most emotionally expressive part of a dog's face is their ears, their ears. And in human beings, your ears are completely useless for emotional expression. We don't have the capacity to do anything with them. We can move our eyebrows and the muscles around our eyes and around our mouths. And I don't know, maybe some people could twitch their nose, although I don't think we use that for emotional expression. So when people are studying human expression of emotions in faces, they actually show people pictures and videos where the ears have been cut off because they're considered completely irrelevant to human emotional expression. And yet early findings indicate that in dogs, the ears are tremendously important, but the way that we look at other faces, whether there are other people, other animals, is kind of programmed into our brains to focus in on those things that have in the past been useful. And that's mainly the eyes. And so people are looking into dog's, eyes trying to see emotion, and the eyes are, that's just not part of how a dog's emotional expression functions look at the ears. That's what we need to be doing.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Absolutely. And you talk a lot about dog's intelligence, and I think everybody kind of has this concept that dogs are intelligent, they're intelligent creatures, but how would you personally describe a dog's intelligence? Is it just their ability to recall information? Do they have this deep emotional intelligence that humans have? What is your study shown you?

Speaker 5 (15:07):
So I always have to preface this by saying there are some very smart dogs out there. I have met chaser the dog that knew the names of 1200 objects. There are smart dogs out there, but by and large, I think the right word for dogs is this word. It's not a commonly used word. I'm trying to make it fashionable. Again, this word, bid bid, you can teach them to do what you want them to do, and people mistake that for intelligence. But really the dog is just an animal that is very ready to catch on to what people want from him. And that is a kind of intelligence. But there are many different kinds of intelligence, bid ability, the ability to do what you're being asked to do. I would rate it as a fairly low kind of intelligence. What I would think of when you asked me about an animal's intelligence, and I've studied other species besides dogs, what I'm looking for is their ability to figure things out for themselves.

(16:06):
And dogs, by and large are not tremendous at figuring things out for themselves. If you give them some kind of a puzzle, they're quite slow at figuring out how to deal with this on their own. Emotion is enormously important in dogs. I find talking of emotional intelligence can be a little bit confusing. What dogs have is just emotional capacity. They just have a drive, a need, a desire to form strong emotional connections. And in them that drive connects across species. We see it when they connect to us, but dogs, in fact, can and do form strong emotional connections with any species so long as they're introduced to them when they're small. So dogs that grow up with kittens, they love cats and dogs that grow up with sheep will follow the sheep around the hills and protect them with their own lives, which is something they've been doing ever since there had been sheep. Actually, it's not clear. There could be sheep if we didn't have the dogs thousands of years ago who were ready and willing to lay down their lives to protect them.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
So getting back to intelligence and them being bid, what would you recommend to people who have just adopted a puppy or an adult dog in terms of finding a trainer to help them teach their dog basic commands or tricks, things like that?

Speaker 5 (17:34):
So here I'm, I mean, there's so many people who already hate me. It doesn't matter time, honestly, I don't think training is so super important. I think most of us, I mean, sure, if you have sheep, you're going to need to train your dog to take care of the sheep, not arguing with you. If you are in the military or a police force and your dog is supposed to be finding explosives or whatever, that dog has to be trained. But look, I'm a dog scientist, but I'm also just an ordinary Joe when it comes to living with a dog. I just want a dog who is fun to be around, who is sweet, and who doesn't pull my arm off when we go for a walk, and who only pees and poops outside the house. That's it. That's it. And actually, you know what? The dog doesn't want to pee and poop in the house anyway. The dog has intrinsic instincts that it doesn't want to dirty the space where it eats, it becomes a problem because our homes are much bigger than a dog would've expected, right? The dog doesn't at first recognize that the bedroom at the guest bedroom is actually still part of the house where you shouldn't be peeing and pooping, right? So I'm not bothered about training. I haven't. This dog we live with now, beautiful dog, beautiful greyhound, she's not there.

(19:06):
All I want is a peaceful life together, and we get that just by living together, just by living together.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Well, Dr. Wynn, we're coming up on time. If our listeners want to follow your research or learn more about what you're working on, where can they go?

Speaker 5 (19:23):
I have a website, clive win.com, so it just becomes a question of being able to spell my name, put

Speaker 2 (19:32):
It notes for everybody.

Speaker 5 (19:35):
So there's that. And one parting thought, which it would be wrong of me not to include. So I say your dog with a little bit of exaggeration. I say, your dog doesn't need to be trained. Obviously your dog does need a little bit of training, but there is one thing your dog really does need. Your dog needs you. Your dog needs your time. You don't have to be training, you don't have to be walking or running. You just need to be hanging out together. In this age where we have these very elaborate pieces of technology that can talk back to us and so on and so forth, you sort of begin to look at the dog as if the dog is another piece of smart technology, and hey, my, whatever, this thing's called from Google that I can talk to and I can ask you what the weather is and so on and so forth.

(20:23):
People have Alexa, if I leave that thing alone for a whole day, it's not depressed when I come back again, it's not living, but your dog is living and your dog is living for you. You have to give your dog time. If you are a busy professional who's out from seven in the morning until seven at night, don't get a dog, the dog doesn't fit into that life. Maybe at some other phase of life, you will have the space. If you're like me, very privileged, and you work from home a great deal, and I'm only 10 minutes from the university campus, I can go in and teach and come back again. So my dog is hardly ever alone. I'm very fortunate that's an ideal life for a dog. Most of the behavioral problems that people have with their dogs because their dog is just left alone too much. We love them because they love us, and they're so sociable and desiring to be in our company, and then we just forget about them. And you can't do that. That's not how a dog works.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah, Dr. Im so glad that, I'm so glad you ended our chat with that. That is such an important message, and thank you for that. And it was a pleasure speaking with you and learning from you.

Speaker 5 (21:32):
It's really fun. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
I got to say, Kristin, I really like that guy.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
He's awesome. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (21:40):
He's really good. Really, really good. Some really interesting stuff. And I like the fact that he wasn't afraid to speak his mind. He's got some opinions. Hey, you may not agree with him, but I think you should listen to what he's saying. He's been around this stuff for a long time. He knows what he's talking about.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, he does. And it's a good thing that Ron didn't book him for the Dog Moms Show because Chrissy and Amber are both dog trainers. They got a few letters after their name. They got a few letters after their name. They got a few letters after their name. Joining me today is Dr. Michael Podo. He's a veterinarian whose worked is between companion animals and small scale agriculture. And this is particularly because families are adopting backyard chimps and other hobby livestock like crazy. Now though, his experience and education work through his clinical experience and education work, Dr. Podo helps veterinarians and pet parents navigate mixed animal households, wear dogs, cats, and poultry increasingly share the same space. And his backyard farming expands into suburban and urban communities. Dr. Podo focuses on practical animal care, disease prevention and communication, which helps people understand how to responsibly care for chickens while protecting the health of their pets, families, and the local ecosystems. Welcome Dr. Podo.

Speaker 6 (22:59):
Thanks, Kristen. That was a great intro. Oh,

Speaker 3 (23:01):
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I'm excited to have this interview because it's about hobby livestock, which is a big trend, and we don't talk about it very often on the show, but I first have to point out his tie. Oh,

Speaker 6 (23:11):
Yes, you

Speaker 3 (23:12):
Guys, he's got the sheep on the tie and even the sheep on the socks.

Speaker 6 (23:15):
Oh, yes.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
So does that mean that sheep are a hobby livestock?

Speaker 6 (23:20):
Yeah. So I mean, the wonderful thing about what I do is I service an interface between hobbyists, small scale operations and pet parents that own anything from sheep and goats to chickens, to cattle, to alpacas and llamas and camels. Wow. Oh

Speaker 3 (23:38):
My gosh.

Speaker 6 (23:38):
So

Speaker 3 (23:39):
All the base base is camels?

Speaker 6 (23:40):
Camels, yes. Oh, goodness. Yeah, I have several camel clientele. Oh my gosh, that's great. It's a very interesting and fun profession to be a part of. Bet it is. But yeah, so I see a little bit of everything, and I have to do a little shout out. I'm the president of the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners, and so what encompasses small ruminants are sheep, goats came lids, which includes camels, alpacas, alums, and deer. So I do a lot of Wow,

Speaker 3 (24:05):
You have a lot of variety in

Speaker 6 (24:07):
Your practice. Yeah, a lot of variety. Exactly. So

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Help us understand why backyard chickens in particular, and I guess that's probably the most popular hobby, livestock.

Speaker 6 (24:15):
Yeah, there is. Yes. Quite a few.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
What is the reason behind this explosion of popularity?

Speaker 6 (24:20):
So I think I always go back to COVID, right? Explain how COVID COVID started it all. So I think during COVID there was not only a lot of people at home with not a lot to do,

Speaker 7 (24:32):
But

Speaker 6 (24:32):
There was also a fear a little bit about where your food was going to come from food security. And as a food animal veterinarian, I understand that fear and that concern. So I think chickens became the easiest thing for many people to have, manage, handle. They're small, they can be in a smaller space. Most of them can be very comfortable in a backyard, and they also provide something to the family as well.

Speaker 7 (24:56):
So

Speaker 6 (24:56):
They're laying eggs on a daily basis. You don't have to go to the grocery store to get eggs anymore. And so I think that chickens exploded because people were home and they wanted to know where their food was coming

Speaker 3 (25:07):
From. And like you said, it's a good entry level hobby livestock.

Speaker 6 (25:11):
Correct. And chickens are hardy, so they are extremely hardy. I mean, if you think about a chicken, it's basically a mini tyrannosaurus racks. So chickens are pretty impressive creatures. I have been blown away by some of the hardiness that I've seen in some of my chicken patients. So I think it's kind of livestock for dummies. I think you can take a chicken and it's really hard to mess up having a pet chicken. So that's great for people that are new to agriculture that are learning. And there's a lot of resources out there too. Some of them good, some of them a little bit not as good. But resources like this where you have people come and talk are excellent to help people navigate owning those pet livestock.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
What's the most important thing that people need to understand before they we'll stay with the chickens for now before they decide to have backyard chickens? What are some of the concerns that you would want them to know?

Speaker 6 (26:05):
So I think the biggest thing for me is knowing that your chickens, one, are going to have enough space. And I've seen chickens living all over the place, so I don't know that there's mean, except if you only put them in a dog kennel, that's not enough space. So they need to have their outdoor space, they need to have a coop, and they need to have some roosting areas for them to go into nesting boxes would be great. It doesn't have to be an extensive setup, but just somewhere that they can feel comfortable. Also, protection from predators. We see, I'm doing a talk during this conference actually about predation and chickens getting attacked by predators. And one of the, unfortunately, one big predator is dogs. So dogs don't understand sometimes. So I think you brought up the interface between cat's, dogs and poultry chickens. That's huge. If you have a dog that is aggressive towards cats or other animals, it's going to be aggressive towards chickens. Right. Well,

Speaker 3 (27:01):
And you must've known my next question because I was going to say, for households that have dogs and cats, what are the special considerations that people need to keep in mind when they're adding chickens or other

Speaker 6 (27:13):
Hobby life? And I think the biggest thing with dogs to understand is that your dog may be an amazing pet for you, for your children. It may be amazing, maybe around other dogs, but the way that a dog interacts with other animals may be different than how they're interacting with you. So it's important to kind of understand that. And especially if you're a multi dog household, there is truly this, I don't want to say that all dogs will do this, but if you have multiple dogs that start getting worked up together,

(27:42):
They can feed off each other. So if you have one dog that you think is very docile and sweet and calm, and the other is more anxious and kind of doesn't do well around others, the two of them, they'll play off each other. And unfortunately, I've seen many chickens, goats, sheep, even cattle attacked by dogs. And that can be devastating because it is a very stressful event to happen. But then also the aftercare is very stressful as well, because the dog's mouth is not as clean as we like to think. Maybe they can kiss you, but you don't want them to bite you by you. Right? Yeah. They can leave behind some pretty nasty germs and chickens, unfortunately are the most likely to die or to be consumed rather than larger hobby livestock. Right.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
They're so vulnerable.

Speaker 6 (28:27):
Yeah, they're so vulnerable. I mean, just three days ago, a client's dog got out and two chickens were the casualty. Unfortunately, thank goodness I was there to at least help the owners understand that they were not alive anymore. But unfortunately, that was something it could have been prevented. And so it's important to recognize before you go ahead and move forward with getting another animal,

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Consider your existing animals.

Speaker 6 (28:51):
Correct. And I think it's respectful to those animals as well.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
What kind of veterinary care do chickens need?

Speaker 6 (28:56):
Yeah, so that's a great question. So I think one of the challenges with backyard chickens is that they're grossly underserved when it comes to veterinary care. There are practices that we'll see them in clinic and provide extensive workups and veterinary care with avian specialists.

(29:12):
There are very few people that will see them in the field. So when I started my practice in the greater Philadelphia area and people heard I was doing chickens, people started calling. People became very popular. Yes. I became very popular. So one of the things that I recommend people do is establish what's called a veterinarian client patient relationship. Find a veterinarian, even if it's an in-clinic hospital that will see your birds because you don't want to be calling around to 6, 7, 8, 9 veterinarians on an emergency. And then the care that they need can range anything from sick animal visits where they are dealing with an infection to them needing to be looked at to discuss husbandry. Right. I've even done surgery in the field on a chicken. And I actually, fun story,

Speaker 3 (29:55):
I

Speaker 6 (29:55):
Had a surgery

Speaker 3 (29:56):
On a chicken,

Speaker 6 (29:57):
A surgery on a chicken. I had a chicken with what's called a crop impaction. So the crop is the area where they store feed after they eat it before it kind of passes into the rest of their stomach. This chicken, very large crop. And it was very thin, so it hadn't been eating well. So I did surgery in the field on the crop, and as I'm looking around, I see this tube-like structure. And I started getting a little nervous because I was like, how could that be intestine? Right? I'm like, there's no way. I'm way above the intestine. It was a snake.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Whoa.

Speaker 6 (30:29):
I pulled out, I

Speaker 3 (30:31):
Did not see that.

Speaker 6 (30:32):
So I'm searching around, I pull it up again and I'm like, this is very strange. And then it was almost like a fun house clown. It was like it kept coming up, pull the snake out and it was, you don't have any

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Video of it,

Speaker 6 (30:43):
You I don't have. I wish I did. I have pictures I can show you, but the snake was that long. Wow. And this chicken swallowed that thing. So like I said, they're tyrannosaurus rack. That is who they are. They're hardy. That's the chicken doing. She survived. She did great. Her name was Geisha. She did awesome. Yeah. She survived the surgery and went on to live. She's still alive, so Oh my goodness. Again, Hardy. That's crazy creatures. They sure are. Yeah. It's one of those things where the owner did all of the things that they could do that they learned online through resources. But then it came down to we need a veterinarian. And fortunately, they already had a relationship with me, which is key. Which is key. And we saved them. So even if you feel like your chickens are super healthy, you've never had any health problems, it's not a bad idea just to check in with your veterinarian and even if it's your dog, cat, vet, and just be like, would you be willing to see my chicken you? If I wanted to bring it in, could you at least tell me I need to take it somewhere else? Right, right.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
And

Speaker 6 (31:33):
That can be very helpful.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Oh, this is fantastic. Tell us a little bit about your practice and the type of animals you treat, and then we'll over wrap things up.

Speaker 6 (31:40):
Okay, great. So I own a practice called Four State Veterinary Services, and I'm located in Newark, Delaware. So my practice travels across four different states, the state of Delaware, eastern shore of Maryland, up into Southeast Pennsylvania and over to South Jersey. So a very extensive large practice area. But I'm a food and fiber animal veterinarian. So my specialty is in the American Board of Veterinary practitioners with food animal practice as my focus. So I see beef and dairy, cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, llamas, alpacas, camels and chickens, ducks, turkeys, peacocks, emus. Wow. Yeah, you name it. If it's, I don't see any dogs, cats, and horses. That's kind of my one caveat, but I will see everything else. And it's makes for very interesting day to day.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
I'll bet It does.

Speaker 6 (32:29):
And what's really great is, I was talking to you earlier, Kristen, about, I'm at an interface being in the greater Philadelphia area between rural, urban, and suburban. So what's really nice about that is I see both production animals that are producing food for the family, for the community, for the world. I get to help in that aspect. And then I also get to see small scale operations, which is what I like to call a lot of my hobbyists, sometimes more than a hobby. It's a passion.

Speaker 7 (32:52):
It's

Speaker 6 (32:53):
Something that they really get a lot out of so, and pets. And so for me, that's a really cool way to interact with a diverse group of people and be able to have an impact on my whole community. It's a pretty awesome practice.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Fantastic. That's great. You've given folks a lot to think about.

Speaker 6 (33:09):
I hope so,

Speaker 3 (33:09):
In terms of before they make that decision to get, whether it's backyard chickens or other hobby livestock, make sure you do your research and identify a veterinarian that can help you

Speaker 6 (33:18):
Absolutely. Ahead of time. And one more thing I wanted to say. So know where your chickens are coming from. So there are chickens that are, it's very common for chicks to go on sale, for example, in Easter time, and people to kind of build their flock from that. But make sure that you're trying to find a hatchery or something that has disease prevention protocols in place. So things like vaccines that were given to the chicks upon hatching. So keep that in mind when you're going to purchase a chick. You want to know where it came from and what medical background it's had in the past.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
Do you have a website where we could send people

Speaker 6 (33:51):
To learn more? Of course, of course. So my website is www, www dot four, the number four state vet.com.

Speaker 3 (33:58):
Okay, fantastic. We'll make sure that's in the show notes. Dr. Podo, it's been a pleasure speaking with you, and thanks so much for joining us today.

Speaker 6 (34:04):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
All right, Dr. Podo, it was really fun to talk to because I've talked to so many veterinarians, but never one that specialized in treating hobby pets like chickens and mini donkeys. And I mean, even mini alpacas, some of the pets, he told me that people have just, it blew me away.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
And chickens, they get sick, man. They're not a hearty breed of animal. And I know a few people who keep chickens and their biggest maintenance costs is veterinary care. So all those tips from Dr. Podo are great for people who are considering getting into some hobbying with their animal selections, the product of the week. Alright, it's time for our product of the week, and we're goofing off here in the chat. We're having a good time in the studio. Oh boy. I'll kick us off, Kristen, because you're still recovering from that outtake. Kristy, do you ever have bonito flakes before?

Speaker 3 (35:20):
No, I've not. What are they? Okay,

Speaker 2 (35:22):
So they basically, like the salty part of fatty tuna turned into a flake. And it's used in a lot of Japanese cooking as either a garnish or used to flavor broth, et cetera, et cetera. Delicious, salty, umami flavors. Well, you know who else loves delicious salty umami flavors?

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Kitty cat.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Your cat? Yeah, your cat. So this company is called Cat Sushi, and this is like human grade Bonita flakes for your cat as a topping on their, it's really for wet food. I'm sure you could put it on dry food, but it's like dry on dry. It's just from a culinary perspective. I don't think that works. But it is essentially just a flavor topper. I have a coworker who uses this product who recently had to switch her cat to a different food for dietary reasons. A cat was gaining too much weight. We had to go ahead and lose some weight, presented with new food, hated it, refused to eat the new food. And us as cat owners, we've all been there that says, you got to switch the food. You switch the food, they refuse to eat it. She bought this product, sprinkles it over the food, any, it's nutritionally, it's a wash, it's barely anything. And the cats are gobbling up the food now. A little baggy, a little tiny four ounce bag is going to cost you, let's see, four ounce bag. It's saying, okay, $17 for a four ounce bag. But four ounces of this stuff is a lot because they're flakes. That's a big old bag that's going to last you probably a better part of a month for feeding your cat. So I found out on Chewy link's going to be in our notes. As always, check it out if you've got a picky cat who needs a diet.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
Alrighty. So I have a product this week. This is one that I actually am getting ready to buy for myself or for our home. It's called a muddy mat, and it's spring now. We're getting close to spring. So if you live in a snowy or icy area, you're going to have the yard's going to get muddy. Maybe you're getting a lot of spring rains, so there's going to be a lot of mud tracked into the house if you have a dog or other critters coming in and inside and out. So this is a microfiber mat, super absorbent. It also is very quick to dry and it also has a non-slip thing on the bottom of it. And they are machine washable. They come in about five, looks like three sizes and 22 colors, which I love. So you can get the right color to match whatever room you need this muddy mat in.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
I don't think I can name 22 colors. Got to be honest.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah. So I think this is a really good practical product for you, especially for dog parents who live in those muddy areas this spring. And yeah, it looks good. It looks fancy

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Too. I love machine. I talked about this in an episode before. I love machine washable. Anytime I could throw it in my appliance, that's a selling point for me. Right, right there.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Did you ever get your washing machine fixed, by the way?

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Kind of. So the issue is it's heavy, it's really heavy and it's in a really tight spot. And fixing it will be simple, but I need to get some friends over to help me move it around and gotcha. I am le tired. Oh yeah. Producers are telling me that we should film this and release it as Patreon content, which would honestly probably do really well. I'm sure a lot of you would enjoy that, but it's not going to Q as.

Speaker 4 (39:11):
Alright everybody. We are being so silly behind the scenes,

Speaker 2 (39:16):
But it is time for us to do our favorite part of the show. That's right. We're going to answer two questions from our incredible guests, and I know what you are thinking. Hey, how do I get my question answered by Chris and Kristen? It couldn't be easier. Head on over to pets add life.org/podcast scrolling down to the bottom of the page and you'll see a form to submit your question. Or if you're feeling as brave as a French person refusing to name their dog with the official letter of that year, then you can record a voice memo and you'll hear your question played live on the PAL podcast.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yes, you will.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yes you will.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
All right. For example, Ethan has a question. Ethan is from Burlington, Vermont.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Ooh, chilly.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
Yeah. And Ethan says, my dog absolutely hates the snow. He freezes up, refuses to walk and sometimes won't even go to the bathroom outside. We live in Vermont, so winter isn't optional. Is this normal and how can I help him feel more comfortable?

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Great question. But when I saw it in the document and read it, I read it as my dog absolutely hates the show. I was like, man, we got some rough critics out there. We do a lot of bark and bite these critics. But yeah, let's talk about the snow. I'm going to make a few assumptions here. I'm going to make the assumption that you do not have a cold weather breed because that would likely not be a problem here. I'm also going to make the assumption of smaller dog because even most big dogs are pretty good at being out in the cold. So I'm going to assume medium to small dog, probably short hair, probably not built for this kind of climate, which is fine because there's plenty of stuff. Humans also are not built to live in a Vermont winter. Think about it. If you were without your jacket and your gloves and you're heating, you would not be living in Vermont.

(41:25):
You'd be dying in Vermont. So there's a few things I could recommend. The first, and I think this is the one that gets overlooked because it makes your dog miserable at first. It is the feet protection. Dog's paws are incredibly sensitive and there's two things happening on that ground right now. The first, it's so cold. Imagine walking barefoot on your ground right now. Do you like that? No. You wouldn't want to go outside either two, the salt, the salt is going to dry up your dog's little sensitive little pads and they're going to get all dry. So I highly recommend getting your dog used to some foot protection using it year round so that winter comes around. They're not like, ah, what is this? Stop it. Please, highly recommend it. Number two, jacket, dogs and jackets, not stupid fashion forward and functional. So get them a cute little jacket that fits them appropriately.

(42:18):
Make sure it's nice and snug and buckled and helps keep them warm. And finally, try and line up your walk times with when the sun is out and shining. I'm here in Connecticut, so I get it pretty well. There's not a lot of sunshiny hours, but that sun is still nice and warm and will do quite well for the 20 minutes you want to take out for a walk. Try to avoid if you can. I don't know the behaviors of your dog, but that first thing in the morning walk is going to be brutal. And that last thing at night, it's going to be brutal. If they need extended play, try to save that for the warmest parts of the day. There's my soapbox, Ethan. Good luck and have fun shopping for a cute little coat food. All right,

Speaker 3 (43:04):
You got one for me?

Speaker 2 (43:05):
I do, I do, I do. This question comes from Mark from Plano, Texas, and my eyes are off. I read piano, Texas, which is probably not a place, but I can't be sure. But Plano, Texas. Mark, thank you for your question. Mark asks, our dog keeps chewing furniture, table, legs, couch corners, anything wood. And my wife is officially at her breaking point. Is this anxiety, boredom, teething, or something else? And how do we actually stop it?

Speaker 3 (43:38):
This is actually one of the reasons that we've been dragging our feet to adopt a puppy because we've been through this with a few of our dogs. Mark, this is super common. Chewing is a natural dog behavior, but obviously when it turns destructive, which sounds like it has, it usually means that something is off. And it's not that your dog's being bad. So here's some of the most common reasons why dogs would be chewing the furniture. You didn't say your dog was a puppy, so I'm going to assume it's not. But puppies do chew to relieve sore gums, especially between three and six months of age. And they like furniture because it's very sturdy and unfortunately it makes it easier for them to chew because they don't have to hold it so tight. Now, adult dogs also chew to self-soothe, especially when they're alone or if there's routine changes in the home or anything that causes some stress or tension.

(44:38):
And also if your dog has some separation issues, that's another reason that dogs will chew. I had a dog that had severe separation anxiety, and he would chew the, what do you call it, the casing around the door that we would exit out. Yeah. So yeah, it was rough. Dogs also chew if they aren't getting enough exercise, if they're bored. And unfortunately once they start chewing, they kind of like it and it can become a habit. So how do you actually stop that chewing? Well, you want to kind of figure out what is the reason they're chewing? Is it boredom? Is it stress? And if you need help figuring that out, you could always talk to your veterinarian or a qualified trainer, but here's some ways that you can manage it and eventually reduce it and hopefully eliminate the problem. The easiest thing to do is manage the environment.

(45:29):
Put up baby gates. If the dog's small enough, keep them in an area of the house with a baby gate or put them in the crate. When you're not home, you can try the bitter apple spray. I've personally never found that to work, but some people say it works and then provide better. Make sure you're providing them with enough chewing options. I actually had a friend tell me once that their dog was chewing on the furniture, and I said, well, what kind of chew toys does he have? And he didn't have any. So things like get him something like a Kong or long lasting chew. There's so many great ones on the market, and it's cool to rotate those twos too, so they don't get bored of the same one. Maybe you have three or four that you rotate every day. And then if you think it's anxiety or stress, I would talk to your veterinarian about that.

(46:16):
And then finally, if you think your dog's bored, maybe you're not giving them enough exercise, increase the amount of activity that your dog's getting. Increase the number of walks, increase the enrichment in the home with puzzle toys, with dog tv. There's lots of ways. We've talked a lot about that topic of the show, and you should start to see some progress. But keep in mind, the longer you let it go on, the more it becomes a habit and it gets a little bit more difficult to unwind. But I think if you implement any of those tips, you're going to see some progress.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
That is some great advice. Arm wrestling champion Crystal Levine. And that brings us to the end of our show. Follow us on social media, follow us back to our homes and stalk us. Give us no peace. Give us no peace and no quarter. We'll be back here next week as always. So we'll see you then.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
We will. And I can't leave you guys without telling you what I read about March being the most popular month for vasectomies. I promised. I would tell you, and according to live science, the number of vasectomies surges by 50% during the first week of March Madness. And why patients typically need at least a day with ice to keep swelling down. Urologist Steven Jones told us. So if you're going to spend the whole day doing nothing, it's not hard to figure out that they'd want to do it on a day that they'd like to be sitting in front of the television. There you have it.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
This adds up

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Only on pet's life. Pets add Life, your guide to the latest in Pet Trends products, and the joy of the Human Animal Bond with Kristen Levine and Chris Bon, powered by the American Pet Products Association and Dog tv.